I am luckily (no pun intended) far away from the current problems but I can not help myself I just have to post here.

Essentially my opinion has not changed since my posting in the Zcrew-forum (the one the got deleted a few hours later).
The server is to small for a big division and people should work together because then they could achieve more but there is a point where the effort of keeping your mouth shut and accepting everything is just more than what you gain from cooperation.
There is nobody on the server I could not work in a team with (but I am no measure I worked with people I would have shot if I could get away with it)
I really understand Purr, as far as cats can be understood, because what made me and Elesia leave in the end was not the private troubles because these where over at that time.
What made us leave was being thrown out of UT because I did not accept being threatened by a leader and because I was just fed up by the cheating and the way the loot was distributed unfairly (and I was profiting from the cheating).

There will never be complete agreement between players on Test because of the kind of people that are attracted to the special environment here. There are times I would really want to play eq2 because I want to raid a bit again but the time difference and reading threads like this one just does not help.

I hope that what has been said here leads to a longer discussion and everyone just says what he or she thinks and that leads to more cooperation.

There are people i really like on both sides of the fence so lets see how this unfolds.
As I am sitting in Germany for the next two weeks with not much to do I will post a bit more now.

Hmm... where to go with this...

Hi, I'm Ryahl... I raid with the alliance raids. In general, I'm pretty reserved and simply dont chat much in games. On a good night, my average communications include witty phrases like "wait here", "move up" and "three pulls to this spot." My preferred mode of gaming is to log in, grab a few people I know, find someplace relatively vacant and go sploring. Over the past eight years or so, that's meant pretty much all Alat-Seldi groups or Alat-Seldi and raid alliance members (we participated in alliances of small guilds in EQ1, DAoC and now in EQ2). We tend to extend our circle by adding someone in for a session or two, seeing if it's a good fit and then either (A) continuing to work with that person or (B) mutually parting directions. I've never expected to like everyone in an MMO, I instead strive to get along with the folks I work with and to pretty much avoid thinking about everyone else.

That means that, on Test, I try to pay attention to what people in the alliance have and are doing and chip in help where I can. It also means that people outside the alliance I hope are enjoying their game and generally dont spend much more time than that on it. Currently, I'm in the middle of a major move and job change and have a professional development thing going on which means the last six (and most likely the next six) months are consumed in real life and my gaming presence is ONLY hours I can sneak away. In general I avoid or ignore server drama (in any game), even more so currently.

I'm overwhelmingly neutral with pretty much everyone on test. I know Kwoungs had a burr in his bonnet about myself and Aela since pretty much we first hit the radar and I know Ssilan genuinely dislikes me. I also know that people I regularly play with like and get along with the people that dont get along with me and mine... and that's... ok. The world doesnt always have to have Brady Bunch endings.

The alliance (the other raid group) is a very casual affiliations of a few guilds that work cooperatively (but each continue to do their own things). We maintain two private communication areas for two reasons: (1) to coordinate when/where we can do stuff and (2) to make sure everyone can express their opinions on alliance specific topics with a general sense of respect for the fact that we won't all agree on pretty much anything. UT isn't in the alliance Kwoung (they dont need to be, they have a pretty darned nice raid setup on their own)... when you two joined UT, you unjoined the alliance... hence, the private channels were blocked. I wouldn't dream of asking for access to UT's private channels (and I'd be silly to expect to have such access).

As can be seen from the alliance people posting in this thread... opinions vary... a lot... and once again, that's OK. I happen to believe that a bit of healthy dissent is necessary for effective group functions, specifically if that dissent can be openly aired and kept on task (and as much as possible off emotions).

Without divulging 'who says what,' pretty much most topic discussions in alliance go something like this: (A) what about Topic X, (B) some people post heavily in favor of topic X, (C) some people post heavily opposed to topic X, (D) others note that we dont have a consensus, (E) the question changes to 'do we need Topic X' to enjoy the game?' (F) most people concede that things are working pretty well and Topic X is optional... (G) Topic X gets tabled.

The alliance isn't a 'closed' raiding force... but the coordinating mechanisms are closed. Membership ISNT closed... but, as with any raiding force, there is an expectation that alliance members actually support building a raid crew. In general, outsiders get invited to a raid, provided that goes well (team player, pays attention, seems to be able to 'get' the sense of humor that has evolved), they get invited back. If they accept, this goes on a few times and then eventually someone in alliance will point out that we really should include them in the private chat. At that point... they're pretty much in. No secret handshakes, no private branding, no oaths, no codes, no blacklists... it's about that simple.

You fit in if you like to raid casually, like to support a team, can genuinely enjoy it when someone else in your raid force gets an upgrade, and recognize and defer loot to the folks that haven't gotten items in a while and/or would really benefit the most from an item. It's a self-policing practice and it only works if the coordinating mechanism is somewhat closed and the membership on raids is relatively recurring. We aren't shaking the pillars of (insert zone), but we're making progress on a few things and it's been fun. We meld together east coast and west coast times, professional commitments, academic commitments and just kind of 'make it work.' Our west coasters log in, often, after we start (and we know it, that's fine), our east coasters have the right to tell the raid "hey I NEED sleep."... and that's ok. It's the small-time casual raid force that you find a few of on any given live server.

We usually field three+ full teams of unique players and use bots to round our third and/or fourth group. Prior to this recent real life disruption (we have several members moving, or going through life changing events, at the moment besides Aela and I), we were hitting a fourth group pretty regularly. We have had 'full raids' twice now... one of which happening to be the run into Lyceum where Zindi had contacted Aela to see if we had slots. That's not a 'no you cant play' thing... that's 'wow... we actually have 24 names in the raid force.' Recognize that, because of our regular west coast players, a 'full raid' may mean we're reserving 1-3 spots because we know when certain people will log in (and have had a commitment from them that they will be on). Recurring players take precedence over invitees. When we have spots, we do invite people along... pending on the general consensus of the alliance, these invites can come along whenever. As far as I have been able to discern, this is pretty much anyone except the people that a few of ours are really uncomfortable around... and, as far as I can tell, those folks wouldnt ask anyways.

I think right now, cross-crew raiding wont work for far more practical reasons than emotional ones: (1) our loot format only really works for recurring raiders, (2) UT and "us?" are on some of the same raid rotations, cross-pollenation screws up everyone's timers, and (3) neither group would be overly comfortable with having to coordinate activities across two groups. I also think that (4) having two different groups tacking things differently is better for testing purposes. Could we do more if we 'pooled'... I doubt it. On paper sure, but getting that 'perfect raid crew' of classes is going to mean locking a lot of really good people out of activities. I dont want to ever be in a position of not being able to bring along a regular alliance member because someone else is 'a better class' for the raid... sorry, I'm casual (and stubborn).

If what we are doing has had ANY impact on the Test 2.0 decision, my gut feeling is that it's the realization that... more raiding is happening on test right now than in any period if time since I've been around (and I'm guessing longer). UT is rolling along and knocking off stuff and I'm quite happy to congratulate them when they call it out in /test. Unlike the off-test server participants in /test, I was genuinely happy for you guys when you knocked off Vyemm!

I dont think Test having a few people that dont agree with each other is THE problem. Two groups may have propelled SOE to realize "wow, what would happen if we had N-groups raiding in a testing setting..." I do think that QA has had some face changes recently and I think their attitude towards Test differs from past folks...

I reiterate, no one in alliance has a hive mind. We disagree on a lot of things, we tend to agree that we're having fun doing the raids... that's all it takes. I dont share the hard feelings that others have, but that's because Aela and I generally kept buffered from the community... we're happy dealing with people at arms length and closely cooperating with the people 'in circle.' I do recognize and respect that those hard feeling exist though, I wont try to put those people in an uncomfortable situation, I'd like them to keep having fun.

Whether Kwoung, or Mal, or I, or whomever doesnt harbor hard feelings... recognize that people on BOTH sides of the fence do. Respecting that means that it MAY, in fact, be in the best of the server to stop trying to connect dots and forcing people that dont want to get together, to get together. There's plenty of trading happening across raid crews and there's as much 'good will' across as there are hard feelings.

What I DO think is a part of the problem is the regular, recurring manifestos telling everyon on test how they should or shouldn't play and where we should and shoudn't talk. That, and feeding the trolls. I know your heart is in the right place Kwoung, but I really think your last two months of missives have had more of a damaging impact on the testthan anyhting else (and that may be an unpopular thing for me to say). As far as I can tell, there have been two raid crews running relatively succesful runs where everyone is gearing up... that (as far as I can figure) should be a darned good thing... not a point for derision and discussion of how horrible it is that things are different than yesterday.

You may not intend to come across as 'the voice of test,' but sheesh your posts almost always take a dictatorial "and this is how it SHOULD be" perspective. It reinforces the impression that Test is some closed 'hive mind' community that simply enflames the Rant people and excludes others (which is quite far from true as Zindi's and other's MnG illustrate). If there are any 'SHOULDS' of test, I would argue they should be 'respect differences,' 'have fun,' 'negotiate when needed,' 'cooperate when you can,' and 'recognize things wont always go your way.'

Now, on specific issues, the Ryahl perspective (and to some extent Aela):

1. Meet and Greet. We have just moved, we just got everything hooked back up. We havent logged into EQ2 since the move. I worked most of last weekend getting stuff ready for meetings Monday. I wasnt going to be around last weekend for anything... let alone MnG. I also simply dont go to Meet and Greets... I recommend them to others (whenever we get an AS member trying out EQ2 I point them to em as a neat way to meet people). For me though, MnG lacks dungeons, monsters and fights (cue Minsc: "less talk,more fight." I'm not chatty in games, meet and greets are chatt... to me, MnG are cool things, for other people to go to.

2. Ventrillo server. I like voice chat. A good chunk of the alliance doesn't. Some dont have the headsets and dont want them, others dont want to talk, others have had bad experiences with voice-chat. Yes, there are personal issues that play out too, but we havent set up an 'alliance' voice chat EITHER... it's a respect for the differing opinions of others... and this is a topic we have clear differences.

3. Cross-crew raiding. With the exception of a few people that would likely NEVER ask to, there's nothing blocking this that I'm aware of. I think it will personally cause logistic headaches for both crews until we are on different raid rotations. Personally, I think it's a bad idea for logistic reasons, but something that could work in the future. Even then, I doubt Aela and I will cross-raid. We kind of coordinate a lot of the alliance runs (or contribute key classes) and I simply dont have much time online right now. Thus, when I have it, it's for guild or raid-crew runs... and I dont see that part of my schedule changing for a good year.

4. Server consensus. This puts a burr in my bonnet and tends to get me to dig my heals in. I respect everyones right to be different than me and get kinda fed up when people trudge on that. It's a big server, it's a small population. There's plenty of room for different play styles and I dont think anyone on test doesnt udnerstand a general need to COOPERATE... that doesn't mean complete 'policies' on... well, pretty much anything.

Personally, whether I get along with you or not, I'll /wave if I see you /cheer if you succeed at something and usually simply go about the stuff I'm doing. If you're in the groups I regular do stuff with, you'll probably see me talk in game... a bit, but even then usually not much more than a few lines of text. I'm not chatty (in game).

I don't know why you think I dislike you Ryahl. I called you an ass once when you were being a bit full of yourself (during the whole craft instance fiasco), but not sure why else you would think that. I think a lot of people are asses at times.

/shrug

Ryahl, as usual you are the voice of reason and you have made yet another great post. Since you poured your heart out, let me do my part. If you have not seen the following text, you deserve to see it. This is a PM I sent on July 2nd..

"Evadne and masume,

I am sending this to both you ladies because I hope the message can be passed on to all parties. I would like to see more union on Test. I don’t know how to get there but I think just sending a message out is a start.

First of all, I feel that I have some explanation to do about TD’s merge with UT. When we came back, FAV welcomed us with open-arms and gave us a place in the raid force right away. We had fun raiding with you guys. Ryahl is a true leader in that he is generous and humble and he works hard. Kwoung praises many times, even in UT raids, how Hekek made his raiding fun by his pally abilities. And so on and so forth. We truly think that you guys are going to go far and the org will be very successful.

The only thing we had to deal with was our own boredom with the game. It became apparent when a T6 raid was announced in FAV channel and we just could not get excited about the raid. I told everyone in the channel quite honestly that was the reason we passed on that raid. This was our 4th time quitting and coming back to the game, and perhaps 5th raid org to join. We long to see new content. That is the one of the very few draws left for us in the game.

Kwoung and I debated and debated. It was not a light decision to switch once we found out how divided the server was. But the decision had to be made. I understand by switching, we put our own needs before FAV’s. But it came down to: Play EQII with a chance to see new content, or play another game. If the server was not so divided, we would love to raid with everyone: Raiders, UT, or FAV. But alas, none of the raid orgs seems to tolerate that.

We made the move. I had wanted to somehow discuss with the key people in FAV but we really did not know who to talk to and what to say. But silence is not a way to go either. So here it is, all of it. I am not pleading for forgiveness for any hard feelings we created by our switch. I am pleading for a re-birth of union on Test, at least to the extent that people who are not in one org. are outlaws for another org.

I do not know of every event that created the division today. I think the only way to go is to forget who’s right or who’s wrong. Let it go and start over. I hope it is possible.

Zindi"

Maybe I was naive to think that I did not un-join FAV when I joined UT. Maybe I overeacted when my account got revoked as soon as I joined UT. Maybe I overeacted when I heard no FAV would come to MnG (though a couple Fhir Rhuen members did show up). But damn, what shame. We've struggled for over two years to get a good raid force going on Test, dating back to Dagon, Cscantran, Tranmek... and finally we got the people and we have to split up like this. I am not going to ever touch the can as to who could have done that again. I'll simply accept the fact that this is how things panned out and yes, you all are right, people should be able to play the game however they like.

But man, you gotta come to the MnG. It is hella fun. Don't know if I am going to host another one soon, but if I do, I promise I won't bite (may peck at times though can't resist that ).

[Edited to add a point to diffuse possible misunderstanding. UT did not require us to join them. Nobody even brought up the subject. We were always welcomed to their raids before we joined. (After we joined we witnessed that UT did make a point in inviting members from FAV to come along and I am not sure how much of that was known or if that was another naive move.) It is our sole decision to join UT because we wish to raid with UT in an offical capacity instead of just a tag along. I would have loved to tag along with FAV without rolling on any loots. I would love to see more tag alongs on either side but apparently it is far more complicated than I thought. I guess the raid side of the arrangements were OK if the undercurrent weren't there. What bothered me more (as was what caused this thread to be created) are more other things. It's like suddenly a sub set of the people do not talk to us any more. Once again maybe I just overreacted. But I just wanted to clarify that UT did not somehow pressure us to join them.]

Ryahl,
Just to get it out of the way, I have no problem with you.. never have.

Yes my posts come across as very strong, thats the way I am, but as everyone else here as said, they are simply my opinion, suggestion and desire and whether folks do it or like it or not (whatever it happens to be), is completely up to them. I word them forcefully though, because well, that has proven over time to be the only way get anyone to even respond. Ask nicely and everyone simply ignores it, which makes even mentioning it rather pointless.

So far, I think this post has worked out very well, as did my Master Spell one. Master Spells are now purchasable on Test and it is very obvious to everyone which ones are needed and which are not. I sold quite a few of mine (and recieved a ton of thanks from people for it), the rest have just sat there for weeks now, which tells me they can be munged for adornments guilt free. I am sure others have the same experience.

As for this post, I think getting everyone feelings, issues, points of view out on the table is a good thing, so they do not fester into something they are not(which IMHO has already happened). I think things said by both myself and many of the other responents help clarify numerous things considerably and hopefully, makes life on Test a bit less stressful by removing the undercurrents.

After being a tester since 1999, I feel differently than you, Ry. The SOE testing environment creates much more of a "one big family" atmosphere over time than can ever be possible on prod. And in a family, it doesn't really matter if everyone is making money and doing good at their jobs, if there is tension in the household...living there sucks. That is certainly why I've tried to patch things up, at least. Might be Kwoung's motivation as well. I can't enjoy myself on a SOE server that is so large that it can host a never ending cold war. "Cold war" is a dramatic term, but...I mean if the server is so big that people can just have ill feelings without voicing them, it's...too big for me. Bugs me constantly, even, like an itch I can't scratch.

In general, I wish MMOs were smaller, though. So maybe that's just me.

There are a lot of good logistical reasons why 2 raid forces can't really mesh into one, with lockout timers and different looting systems, etc. Still, knowing there are personality clashes and unresolved feelings makes me want to sew things up on the social level, whether or not there is any actual hunting or raiding together. The fact that everyone is getting loot and gearing up isn't enough to make me ignore some nagging social problems.

I can understand how a term like "should" would feel uncomfortable when it is a stranger telling you that you "should" do X. But when a friend or brother says "We should do X", there's no reason to dig your heels in. They have your interests at heart, and will listen to reason - they aren't trying to force something down your throat. I think if Kwoung says "should", even if he sounds angry at the moment, he is speaking as a caring part of a community, and he is interested in hearing arguments both emotional and intellectual for or against his idea. I feel like Kwoung speaks to everyone with respect, and treats them as equals. I haven't ever had the impression that Kwoung felt he was the boss of test. I don't get that from Lucky either, though (maybe that's part of his sinister plan to throw me off guard?)

Maybe I'm just too squishy and emotional, though. I tend to feel close to test players. I couldn't stand to keep others at arm's length. For all the drama potential that lies in having people be close, I get to savor their real personalities more. I like Volgrant's roguishness, Kuulei's playful naughtiness, Purr's volatility (and fancy dress!), Keth's defensive squishiness, Aela's bossy gruffness, Kella's depth and silliness, Anoupia's doe-eyed gnomishness, Fedd's spirit of camaraderie, Ry's concentration and even-handed leadership abilities, Zindi's rough carpenter hands (*moan and writhe*), and Kwoung's huge secret collection of size 13 high-heeled shoes.

If we had a greater group identity that superseded any raid-group subdivision, this thread wouldn't exist. So...we should have a greater group identity that supersedes any raid-group subdivision! =D

Group hug!
<3
Mal

Zindi;
(note: we/our in this post is referring to Ry and I, unless otherwise stated )

Ry is at a training today and as he said in this post, he is very busy right now so he wouldn’t be able to respond till tonight.

That said, neither him nor I have logged into EQ2 since the move a week and a half ago. We're both really busy right now. Because of that, understand we would not have attended any event this weekend, no matter who was leading it.

Additionally, in general, neither Ryahl nor I have ever attended MnG's aside from our first week here on test. As he said in his post, we do let guildes who come to eq2 know about it, and explain they might enjoy it; however, as far as the two of us, it's just not overly likely to occur. Not because we don't like the idea of it, not because we don't like the people running them. We just have pretty limited play times, and when Ry has time to log in and play...he doesn't have time to stand around and chat. He doesn't talk alot (ask anyone in AS or the "FAV" alliance) his statement about "wait here", "move up" and "three pulls to this spot" is pretty much right on the money. Chatting and talking is not what he enjoys about the game, so he doesn't do it. When he logs in, he really does like to grab a group or a raid...and hit a dungeon. If he has to sit in one place doing "nothing" for more than 10 mins, he'll log out.

And, just so everyone is clear, Ryahl and I have never had anything against Lucky personally and with our own interactions with him. Lucky and i have talked quite a bit in the past, and we have traded regularly over the past year.

If we like him as a person or not, we didn't enjoy raiding with him. His play style doesn't "mesh" well with what we enjoy doing. That is honestly, why we would be unlikely to attend one of his raids. Nothing personal. We don’t dislike him, we just won’t raid with him. We just get bored about 15-20 mins into the raids...and raiding isn't critical enough to us for us to spend an entire evening not having fun. If we can't ever raid in eq2, we'd be okay with that. We're just as happy taking one group into a single group instance and doing that instead.

Other people enjoy his raids, that’s great.. really. I don't care what other people do to have fun..and even more so when it has zero effect on me. If they succeed, i am honestly happy for them, and tell them grats. Lucky's raids work and are fun for those folks who attend them. That’s cool for them. They weren't our "cup of tea." We are currently raiding (when we were actually loggin in) in a way "we" like to raid, with rules and policies that "we" enjoy. If other folks who raid with us weren't having fun, we'd tell them to go find something that they enjoy and do it. It is a game, do what you enjoy.

One critical thing about our alliance is the fact that since we (the alliance) work as a team and build up together, each thing members can do that can make an individual stronger make us stronger as a group. (That is the core of Alat-Seldi’s Charter, which can be read here for reference: http://www.alatseldi.com/guildcharter.php it might clarify what I’m saying and what I’m about to say) That why sometimes you have to make the decision to help someone with a quest step, or to gain an item you might have done before. That's why once your char upgrades your armor/weapons it's critical to continue playing that character (even if you don't get upgrades for awhile) to build the team..and that’s why it's important to return time and time again to a dungeon you might have already done in the past—if others need help getting something from there. That's why it's critical to be happy when other people get upgrades..because what makes one of us stronger, makes our raid stronger.

Honestly, I have nothing against you Zindi, but the night you two made the choice not to help us (this us is the alliance) go in and kill the GodKing..because you had done it before and weren't interested in repeating that content.. Your actions spoke louder than words. We weren't wanting to go in and do T6 content over and over again. We needed a raid to go in and take out a named so we could then go in and drop the GodKing (we had all pieces but that one named ring event), and we were a tiny bit short on DPS. You didn't want to go. Not because you didn't have time, not because you were busy. But because you weren't interested in doing something that YOU didn't need. You wouldn't have benefited from it, therefore it wasn't important to either of you. (this is all aside from the fact that i'm not sure if there are any people on test who have all their T6 master spells..so maybe you could have benefited from it..)

Those words spoke loudly. As i said before, it's a game. Do what you enjoy. You made the choice based on what you enjoy. Neither I nor Ry (the only two people i can speak for) hold this against you. However, the choice you made didn't align with alliance core principles. At that point I knew, whether you did or not, that it just wouldn't be the right fit for you two. However, we still allowed you to make that decision for yourself.

Then you joined UT.

UT is not a part of our Raid Alliance. We were online (raiding) when you joined UT. You didn't say anything to us. You didn't let us know. You remained in our chat channel for some time, and you never said anything.

We removed you from the private boards because they are just that, private. As Ry said, we don't have access to UT's raid planning boards, and we would never expect to.

I (and at least Alat-Seldi) hold nothing against you in your decision; however, it was your decision. We're just honoring it. We don't dislike you. You are just not part of our "crew" and while we go out of our way to help our own, we have no obligation to do the same for those who have made the decision to leave. (this is basically the rule of Alat-Seldi, and carries over to whatever relationships Ry and i choose to have in game wither it be personal, group, guild, alliance, or anything else.)

I'm sorry if it hurt your feelings when your access to our boards was removed, it was not our intent.

We (ry and I) have nothing directly against allowing UT people to join us on raids, however we're still trying to gear up and equip our folks. According to what i looked at a few weeks ago, UT started running DKPs. With DKPs any of our guys attending one of your raids wouldn't typically get upgrades, unless it's a trash item no one else wants. However, under our rules, you guys could get items attending our raids, even when our guys still need the item. We don't know the "correct" answer to this issue, however we're not willing to move to DKPs. While we are still gearing up, and in general being successful on our raids..we're not overly worried about it. The alliance as a whole has discussed things, and while we all may have different opinions, the general consensus at that time was it was better to keep things the way they were then chance messing things up for no real reason other than just because.

I’m going to stop rambling now. If anything I said bothers someone that wasn’t my intent.

[edit: realize it's not about loot, I just was using that as an example. If we had a spot on an open raid, or if we were attending a raid that was full because we added pickups..and Talynn or another guild member logged in late, they'd be sitting around doing nothing all night. We (Ry and I) have an obligation to our guild--and now our alliance--and if the two raid groups we currently have folded into one there would be a lot of good folks left high and dry with no raid...and without the right mix of classes or leadership to pull together their own "pickup" raid. That just not something we're intersted in seeing. ]

Mal;

The primary difference between you and I is that I feel that responsiblity to my group, my guild and my alliance. They are my family. I don't feel that way about the entire server. Specficially with those who can "take care of themselves". I will help people I don't know who need help.. the random person who doesn't know anyone here, or needs help because they can't do something on their own. However, when it's someone who has an entire guild x2 the size of our raid alliance, I feel they don't really need me to go out of my way to help them, they can support themselves.

However, I'm also one of those people who can agree that we can disagree and still get along. Not everyone has to have the same opinion and beliefs in order to be friendly and for everyone to have "warm fuzzies".

I just don't have time to be responsible for or have a family the size of the entire server. I hardly have enough time for the 30 or so odd people in the raid alliance.

Actually Aela, that is not true at all. Like Zindi posted previously (I think), the reason we took a sabatical in the first place, was we were completely worn out and bored to tears at doing the same old thing over and over and over and had no iterest in doing that ever again if we came back.

We did not come not because we would not benefit from it, we did not come because doing things like that actually make me feel like not playing this game anymore... and there are many other parts of the game I enjoy very much.

As for assuming our motivation, I would have hoped that Zindi's and my history of helping more people than I can count who both played or still play here... would have led people to assume differently, rather than pegging us as entirely selfish just because we turned down a single raid that would have caused us a very unenjoyable evening of gaming.

Yeah, there are many times I am out for myself (not so with Zindi btw), but the hundreds and hundreds of selfless hours we have put into helping other folks on this server should stand for something I hope. if that is what caused everyone to suddenly give us the cold shoulder, at least I now know and I hope you take our reason as valid.

EDIT: I am sure that everyone has parts of the game they do not find enjoyment in(and avoid), that just happens to be mine. My motivation to play is based on numerous things, but most of all I like to take on a challange and eventually beat it. Hammering my head against the wall with constant failure(like the 75 failed trips to Labs) or doing things that are pathetically easy, not only hold no interest for me at all, they make me feel like going to spend extra time with my daughter instead. So given a choice between extra daughter time or spending the evening bored to tears, I tend to choose my daughter. If I remember correctly, Zindi and I logged off and watched a movie with her that particular night.

Zindi actually had said something, but it was edited out of her post.

That said, at the end of the evening, whether or not it was overly enjoyable, over half of the raid group upgraded into the Godking weapon (still very nice for healers/casters) or the Vessel of Fhir'Un, or both. I understand your point, i don't think you get mine. I have no problem with the choice you made, it was your choice. However, your statement is my point. You see nothing wrong with not wanting to help your raid force all upgrade..b/c you just didn't want to do it. That's okay for you, but not what the "FAV" crew was all about (we don't use that name anymore) at least how i see it.

Ultimately we ended up knocking off the whole thing anyhow (not sure if it was that night or not?), for a lot of people who were on it, it was the first time they had seen that raid instance. However, if everytime Ry, I, or any combination of people wanted to sit out of something because they had already done the quest/area/dungon.. there would be a lot of folks in our alliance with nothing to do.

You don't HAVE to agree with my idea on how coorporation works, but at least understand why that decision lead to the conclusions it has.

Additionally, i have little to no interaction with you. I don't know how many hours you have spent helping people on test. All i know is the interaction you have had with us on these boards. Maybe others saw things differently when you both decided not to attend, however how could i have known anything other then my direct interaction with you limited to the rather strong posts here, often directed at us and the one time you joined us on a raid we didn't directly need you, and then blew us off the next time when it actually could have made a direct difference in our success/fail of many hours of gameplay collecting eyes?

[edit: just FYI, the raid had actually failed 4-5x on that last ring event to open the GodKing--with a 4 hour lockout--before i sent you a tell asking you to come help us. We kept running out of time on the event because we didn't have enough DPS in our 2-2.5 groups.]

You were correct in your decision then, I do not fit in.

If helping others in ways I find unenjoyable or possibly even loathe, is a requirement for membership in good standing, I definately can not do that. I am sure many are fine with that, I am not. I think my extremely limited free time is much to valuble to spend even one second of it on an activity I am not having fun with, when there are so many other options available. Many of which do include helping others, just in ways I do find enjoyable.

We are now getting into my philosophy on life BTW, not just gaming. I do not believe anyone should be miserable, life is to short. Regardless of any religion / beliefs / etc.. I think if we are here on this planet for any reason, it has to be to enjoy ourselves. Whats the point if you are not having fun? Thats how I live my entire life.. and it works out quite well for me.

No-one's blanket boycotting the M&G's. It's just scheduling and personality types. Seems over half our alliance is away until Labor Day and you just got the scheduling shaft.

In fact most everyone I talk with regularly thinks they're a good idea. And most everyone I talk with regularly still tries to help out the newbies who deserve it. (And Fhir has long, LONG ties to the M&G, as you well know, via Osen, Evadne, Lyli, etc.)

I don't think anyone really wants to divide the server in the way you inferred from a combination of personal hostilities and unfortunate scheduling. It's just the end game, really...

I'll still stand with you all in Test Pirates if the chance should come again.

did not edit my original post at all. I only added the last paragraph.

Kwoung and I never finished the godking quest. We have, however, been in that zone countless times and (this is new edit: We really hate silent city). We are too impatient to do the quest.

Aela I don't know you were here when Lucky led countless T5, T6 raids for the sole purpose to helping the new comers. We were in many of those raids where we did not receive anything but repair bills. We are not so selfish as you want to believe, really, even though we do not run over to help anyone who asked. That's our way to preserve some fun aspect of the game. I am not asking for credit for any of this stuff. Just want to set the records straight.

Very glad to hear it.. but Zindi was actually told differently in game. She was told very clearly that Alliance Members would not be coming to the M&G because Lucky might be there. We were also told very clearly, that The Alliance was not going to use the new Ventrilo server because Lucky uses it and they think it is a UT server.

That is what started all this. There really was no misunderstanding on our part at all... that is exactly what we were told. It appears there are some Alliance members who are very seriously misrepresenting the orginization if everything I read here now is true.

Actually those reasons arent completely incorrect... they're just incorrect when applied in totality.

People posting in this thread have been quite careful to make it clear they are giving you their perspective. There's also any number of posts stating that there isn't 'an alliance perspective.'

Meet and Greet
- Did people skip M&G because of moves and out of pocket time: yep
- Would some of those people (me) still have skipped M&G because it's a M&G: yep
- Did some people skip because there would be people there they dont get along with: dunno, but prolly

Ventrillo
- Did people veto Ventrillo because it's voice chat in general: yep
- Did people veto Ventrillo because they were uncomfortable with someone outside the alliance controlling (having access) to passwords in something ostensibly alliance only: yep
- Were some people interested in using voice in some form: yep

Cross-Server Raiding
- Are some people against it because of past rifts: yep
- Are those people over it: dunno, but I doubt it
- Is that a perspective of everyone on both sides: nope
- Are there other, logistical reasons that make it impractical: yep

The Rift
- Does it exist: Signs Say Yes
- Will talking about it make it go away: Not likely
- Does it need to go away: Perspectives differ, I dont think it needs to
- Will those in the middle be uncomfortable: yep

If you are so inclined, this is an interesting manifestation of a social-psychological problem associated with Balance Theory a topic which I find interesting. Those in the middle catch a lot of pressure, but if those in the middle recognize that the ends aren't going to meet... and the ends aren't going to be bugged too much if the middles communicate with both ends, it's not that big a deal. And... it's better than the more likely outcomes of structural imbalance.